Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 09, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I don't code

And I do, and it seems unlikely that changing values such as skill cost, duration, magnitude, recharge, etc, would be particularly difficult.

Coverticus · Apr 09, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

GW AI is much simpler than that. from what i've seen, they operate based on a script, with each individual skill usage scripted in. this explains why the AI does not (or at least, DID not) use healing burst properly, because it is (or was) scripted as a point blank heal even after the function change.

Very true in the scripting, I may have over elaborated a touch but it was just an example to say that just changing variable values, while simple in terms of updating table values in a database, have knock on effects elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

And I do, and it seems unlikely that changing values such as skill cost, duration, magnitude, recharge, etc, would be particularly difficult.

I would hazard a guess that you've coded very basic stuff then as anyone who has coded in depth and with complex systems would never make a statement like that.

Rebel Zero · Apr 09, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month.

Have you been living in some dark cave for the past year? If you can even count above 5 I suggest clicking the links below and seeing if you can spot any patterns in who wins the MAT every month.

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...08/default.php

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...09/default.php

Krill · Apr 09, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by riktw

programming can be hell, change 1 thing and you can get about 100 bugs.
you find about 50 of them, 2 hours before you release it you find another 30 and the players find the other 20 and exploit them like hell.

I would have taken a token skill update just to fix warrior's endurance (like the Jan update because of holidays). Does that really take any testing? It's just frustrating to have to wait an entire month for something so small.

As usual all the PvE players will be foaming at the mouth over tonics, storage, HoM changes, etc. while PvP players are left empty handed. It's just frustrating but I know anet can't please everyone with limited resources.

A11Eur0 · Apr 09, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

And I do, and it seems unlikely that changing values such as skill cost, duration, magnitude, recharge, etc, would be particularly difficult.

Unless there are other things in the game that are tied to those values. Maybe just changing values isn't the only thing they have to do. RoJ's values are fine...it's the effect on aggro that's the problem. Changing that might have serious effects on other things.

It's easy to say that you can write code...but how robust is that code? Which major programs have you written or been a part of writing? I'm going to call BS on your so-called coding skills.

What's wrong with warrior's endurance? Wow, energy on hit. That's so overpowered....it just seems to me like if there's a specific meta build that's used more than any other build, there must be something overpowered about it.. Ever try blinding that warrior? Oldest trick in the book.

Highlander Of Alba · Apr 09, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Just another little teaser from linsey's journal posted to-day

So what you guys think this could entail for the update ??

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urdock/Journal

Thursday, April 9th 2009
He's coming...
He's coming...
He's coming...

Still Number One · Apr 09, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month

Hi my name is Rebel Rising [rawr]. I have 10 gold capes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

there would be a 100% or near-100% rate of completion in speed clear groups. This doesn't happen.

What does this have to do with balancing GvG? People sometimes make mistakes. that's why it isn't 100% nothing ever is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The game isn't broken because there's nothing seriously imbalanced enough to make every strategy that isn't Flavor of the month fail hardcore.

Hello my name is Lingering Curse, Peace And Harmony, Warrior's Endurance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Just because most players go up against a strong build that has more than 2 players running the same elite skill and don't have the ability to counter it, doesn't mean that elite skill is overpowered, it means those players need to learn how to make new builds to counter these new strategies.

You don't get the point. They can't make a new build to counter these without using something more broken then these, which isn't there. In order to make this happen the game would need to be more balanced. Let me tell you what balanced means.

It means that the three basic play styles (split, pressure, and spike) are all viable builds to run. They are all equally as strong and when played correctly give you the chance to win. If I run a split build and split and collapse perfectly throughout the entire game, I should win or put myself in a very good chance to win the game. If I run a pressure build, overtime I should be able to drain your monks energy pools enough to where they can no longer top off bars and I should be able to score kills. Right now all you can really do is play a spike build with tons of defense and 3..2..1 everything. Should spike be killed? no. But it should not be the only viable option to win.

Look at the monthlies (which are really all that matters since ladder is a joke). What has won? Rawr with their rawr spike, Cookies with their Cookie Spike, and KMD with that single warrior spike (they did play other builds but the point is spiking won them the gold cape). The fact of the matter is, spike is all that wins.

This is just recently speaking, split used to win back with assassin split, and even though it is lame should be viable. And DF did win with what is now called "DF Honor Balance", but recently all that wins is Spike builds. This is your sign that the game is extremely imbalanced and needs to be fixed.

Coverticus · Apr 09, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander Of Alba

....

Thursday, April 9th 2009
He's coming...
He's coming...
He's coming...

I'm hoping that was posted into the right journal....

fowlero · Apr 09, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month, there would be a 100% or near-100% rate of completion in speed clear groups. This doesn't happen. The game isn't broken because there's nothing seriously imbalanced enough to make every strategy that isn't Flavor of the month fail hardcore.

Were you talking about GvG/HA/TA in this?

Quote:

What's wrong with warrior's endurance? Wow, energy on hit. That's so overpowered....it just seems to me like if there's a specific meta build that's used more than any other build, there must be something overpowered about it.. Ever try blinding that warrior? Oldest trick in the book.

Are you serious? Do you actually play organised pvp?

Specific meta builds are run the most BECAUSE there's something overpowered about them.

Your point about blinding is one of the reasons its powerful, blinding them doesn't hurt a WE war nearly as much as any adrenaline based warrior because he's running on recharge times/energy not adrenaline buildup. Sure he needs a few hits for energy but it is not nearly as detrimental than to adrenaline based bars.

Apollo Smile · Apr 09, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I would have taken a token skill update just to fix warrior's endurance (like the Jan update because of holidays). Does that really take any testing? It's just frustrating to have to wait an entire month for something so small.

As usual all the PvE players will be foaming at the mouth over tonics, storage, HoM changes, etc. while PvP players are left empty handed. It's just frustrating but I know anet can't please everyone with limited resources.

I see where you are coming from but at the same time, who is to say that there isn't something PVP related in the April update as well? At least wait until AFTER we get it before making such claims.

Arkantos · Apr 09, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

I see where you are coming from but at the same time, who is to say that there isn't something PVP related in the April update as well? At least wait until AFTER we get it before making such claims.

Unless it's a major update, PvPers aren't going to care much as long as there's no skill balance.

A11Eur0 · Apr 09, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

How is it that a team overpowers other teams merely due to skill and wins, all of a sudden their builds are overpowered? What kind of sense does that make? rawr's build obviously isn't so overpowered that they always win, because they lost horribly this past month. KMD's skills were used by other guilds and those guilds didn't win....they didn't even make top 4. Player skill does not an overpowered build make. According to you people, maybe we should handicap the players of those guilds in the spirit of "balance". Give the little guys a chance to win. They have the skill to make builds work. It's not just the build, otherwise you'd have nobodies jumping into the top spots and you'll almost never have the same guilds winning. That's entirely the opposite of what you're saying...the same guilds win because those guilds have the skill, not the "skills".

Now, I won't pretend to know every in and out of GvG. I do know, however, that there are a thousand skills in this game and endless combinations of those skills...there's always a counter to everything. The pure essence of Guild Wars is player skill. There is a point where it goes beyond the skills being imbalanced, to the players' skill being superior.

fowlero · Apr 09, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

How is it that a team overpowers other teams merely due to skill and wins, all of a sudden their builds are overpowered? What kind of sense does that make? rawr's build obviously isn't so overpowered that they always win, because they lost horribly this past month. KMD's skills were used by other guilds and those guilds didn't win....they didn't even make top 4. Player skill does not an overpowered build make. According to you people, maybe we should handicap the players of those guilds in the spirit of "balance". Give the little guys a chance to win. They have the skill to make builds work. It's not just the build, otherwise you'd have nobodies jumping into the top spots and you'll almost never have the same guilds winning. That's entirely the opposite of what you're saying...the same guilds win because those guilds have the skill, not the "skills".

They lost horribly this past month, you do realise their then current variation of rawr spike got pretty heavily nerfed this past month? Hence part of the reason their playing on a smurf. They ran a different build, and they did badly (relatively). They have skill at the game, noone is denying that, but the "skills" as you put it really do make a larger difference than you're letting on.

No, according to these people the game should be more balanced.

Quote:

Now, I won't pretend to know every in and out of GvG. I do know, however, that there are a thousand skills in this game and endless combinations of those skills...there's always a counter to everything. The pure essence of Guild Wars is player skill. There is a point where it goes beyond the skills being imbalanced, to the players' skill being superior.

You're right, this doesn't however stop anything from not being or being overpowered relative to other skills or builds of the same type, so what's your point?

On topic, i'm wondering what happens after this tonic? Are they continuing with new ones? If not i wonder if they'll put all tonics into everlasting drop rotation.

A11Eur0 · Apr 09, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.

fowlero · Apr 09, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.

I personally never said that it is needed "THIS MONTH" but that's not really anything to do with it.

I just interjected at your reasoning that the game wasn't broken because i disagree strongly.

My reasoning not being rawr winning, but because everytime i've played gvg recently (with teams that have at least some clue what they're doing) you either face nH build or defensive spike. It gets old, and to face it for another month puts a lot of people off because playing/against the nH build just isn't fun, and nor are many positions in defensive spike for some players.

Basically it keeps the game fresh (and fun), and its very very stale at the moment.

Still Number One · Apr 09, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.

You seriously need help in understanding this don't you?

What was rawr's build? It was a spike.

What was the build KMD won with? It was a spike

What was the build Cookies won with? It was a spike.

Do you see a trend yet? What wins games? Spikes.

I don't care which version of an overpowered defensive spike you are running. It is still an overpowered defensive spike. Yes there are over 1000 skills in this game. GUESS WHAT, only about 10% of those skills are viable in high end PvP environments. Does gvg take player skill yes. And rawr arguably has the best 8 man team in the game right now. That is why they won 10 gold capes. They are the best at what they do. And that is run overpowered defensive spikes that take advantage of game mechanics and strategies. The problem arises when there are literally no options to countering them.

You can say run a build that counters them all you want to. But there is not a viable one out there. If you think people have not tried to come up with one you are dumb. And although I doubt you know this, you could throw the excuse that rawr beat rawr spike with nH build. However they won that because in large part to SHAT not running expel hexes on their water mes because they thought rawr would run rawr spike in which you wouldn't need expel hexes against.

The game needs to become more than just defensive spikes. It needs to make split play viable to win a monthly again. It needs to bring back pressure builds. And the best way to do this is to force these spike teams to have to apply more of their skill slots into offense and less into defense so that they can be killed and it isn't who 321's the best. More play styles need to be viable. Why you are trying to argue this point is beyond me. You obviously never have competitively Gvg'd so I don't know why you are trying to lecture someone who has.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Apr 09, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

You seriously think most pvp players are fired up about stoarge and HoM? Either you don't pvp or you're kissing some serious ass, or both.

I do PvX thank you... and I didnt say PvPer's were fired up and ra-ra about the update... but the HoM update effects everyone... how else are you going to post your Gladitor or Commander titles?

Arkantos · Apr 09, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

there's always a counter to everything.

I could argue against everything you're saying, but personally I don't want to get into a pointless argument, so I'm just going to quote you on this.

Just because something has a counter doesn't mean the game is balanced, and playing build wars isn't fun. If you have to play build wars just to counter a build, there's a problem. You have your opinion, which is fine, but if you don't understand that there's a problem about the games balance, you clearly don't know much about PvP, or game balance.

lewis91 · Apr 09, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Thanks for the update, cannot wait for more storage, ive had no space pretty much since ive got the game, and no spaces to create a storage char ¬_¬.

wickedss · Apr 09, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I love how pvp'ers are usually the one crying about skill updates or the lack thereof. If you are getting your butt handed to ya, learn to play better or come up with a better build. As far as "build wars" goes, that's kinda the point of pvp...make a better build than the other guy.

@op: Thanks for the info...good or bad, Thanks for the communication.